As the subject indicates, I've been offered a Junior Associate position at McKinsey, which really caught me completely off-guard.. Partly because I assumed that a JA position is a stepping stone for a Business Analyst and not a valid starting position (be it for an MBA or a PhD) and also because the feedback I received from interviewers (first round) was that I did "very well" and I had a feeling that the final rounds went well too (in my last interview with a partner, he actually commented on my answer by saying that's exactly what they did for their client)So to cut things short.. Can I really negotiate the deal with Mck? And if so, will it be on the position itself (JA vs A) our soley compensation-based?P.S. I haven't interviewed anywhere else, so I really don't have any offers to benchmark against.Many thanks in advance

http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/is_mckinsey_right_for_me/roles_and_career_paths.aspxgo read up. Junior Associate just means 1st year Associate, and it's the entry point for MBA's and other advanced degrees, such as PhD's.The position is above Analyst. Nothing to negotiate, unless you have significant professional experience.

Hi,I am wondering if you could help / direct me with some additional information on preparation for the McK interviews. Information such as, how were your telephonic and onsite interviews, what type of questions, what type of cases (may be sample), and any tips you may suggest.Also what is ball park compensation for the associate role that you are offered? If it is okay with you, is it possible to exchange some more info via email exchange?thanks

"go read up. Junior Associate just means 1st year Associate, and it's the entry point for MBA's and other advanced degrees, such as PhD's. The position is above Analyst."I'm afraid you could well be wrong (at least for the Middle East office, to which I applied for).. An ex-Mck friend of mine was hired as an Associate (had an MBA) and he too was a little intrigued I was offered a JA position. Although I must admit he did say it was possible, but not the norm..To a:I will reply with another post soon about your queries.

euroconsultant, you might wanna read this excerpt from Mck's APD website:"U.S. and Canadian locations hire PhD, MDs, and JDs as Associates"http://www.apd.mckinsey.com/jump/transition.aspIt says that for other locations, it depends upon the practice of the specific location and/or the individual's interview performance.So if you check out the swiss Mck website for example:"Master's or Ph.D. graduates join McKinsey Switzerland as either Junior Associates or Associates"

There's no big difference between Jr Associate and Associate (or Senior Associate), other than pay scale and how fast you're expected to make it to EM. Roughyl speaking, Jr. means 1st year, whereas Sr means you're expected to make it to EM in about 12 months or so. So basically the two quotes are saying pretty much the same thing.FWIW, I got hired as an Associate, have a PhD and some professional experience.

To a:I am not sure about your particular background but in my case, I had a PhD in Telecom engineering and my approach may not be the best example as I'm the kind of person who would really over-prepare (you'll see what I mean in a minute)Although it mentions in almost every posted site/forum related to Management Consulting that PhDs are not expected to know business terms, believe me you WILL BE!I prepared for the interview in parallel with my thesis writing (took my time over 4 months). I've spent the first two learning MBA material both at home and by attending classes unofficially at my uni (Economics, Marketing, Operations and Strategy).The next two months I invested heavily in practicing case interviews. And by heavily I mean I've read almost every book out there from the Columbia and Wharton guides to Case in Point and Ace your Case (list goes on, totaling around 13 individual books/guides).Once I was confident, I approached an ex-Mck "friend-of-a-friend" who was nice enough to offer me a mock interview. I would say this is the single MOST important aspect of my preparation, mostly because it acted like a nerve sponge.. I was a nerve wreck (didn't know the guy, but he was a very intimidating ex-Mck partner who really grilled me with the hardest interview I came across to date). This really got the nerves out of my system, so when I came to the real interviews I was much more confident. As a matter of fact, when I received my call after my first rounds, the interviewer pointed out that "I was very confident but not to the point of arrogance, which is a very difficult balance to strike"My cases varied from a Pharmaceutical company planning to launch a drug, and a retail tires store offering treading, to educational reform.The key here is not to focus on the particular cases but to identify what type of a scenario it is (Growth, Competitive Response, New Product/Market ..etc).One thing I noticed is that every single case at Mck had a significant mathematical part to it. You WILL BE asked to calculate numbers, so make sure you polish up your Arithmetic skills.Last, but most importantly, you have to have a solid structure to you approach. Resist the temptation to fire bullets in the dark and always start by laying your overall structure. If you do get stuck, don't panic, just recap on your logical tree and things should fall into place.If you REALLY hit a brick wall and get stuck completely, smile and make an honest remark like "Honestly, at this moment I can't think of other factors, except for X, Y & Z". It'll show your interviewer that you're confident under pressure, and he may be tempted to through in hints to guide you in the right direction (but don't expect a direct hint/answer).Good luck with your interview, and let me know how it goes

Hello ThereMany thanks for your message above. I have recently been to European Insight 2008 by McK and highly inspired to pursue a career with them. I have started my preparation to schedule my interview in Nov-Dec. It will be appreciable if you please some more detail about the books. I have got Wetfeet consulting (Ace your Case 1-5), Vault Guide to Consulting. please mention other sources of preparatory material for it. How did you prepare for Case Interview? By saying that I mean alone, or in a group?Thanks in advance

Hey Alok,I've started studying for the case studies interview too and maybe we could keep in touch and do some case studies together. Yes Dilemma could you give us more details about the books? and did you study by yourself?Cheers

Alok Gupta? With the husky voice?

Hi GGI agree with Dilemma that you need an exhaustive practice and preferable 3-4 interviews with other companies before you go for McKinsey (What McKinsey-ites says). I have just started the preparation. Case practice should be in a group of 2-3 people. I will be very happy to practice case interview with you. But, the main problem is physical location. Where are you based?ThanksAlok

So what happened then??I have to say that I find it astonishing that someone with just a PhD could come in so high up the food chain!! Some of these people will never have done a day's work in their lives, right??How does someone with no relevant experience help out a bunch of more junior people that are modeling the market for XXX in YYY? Incredible...And scary.

D, do you really think just juniors will do work for a particular client for a certain market in a country ?In general, juniors will do the number crunching and throw in some academic ideas. More senior people will guide the ideas/process/outcome to give the client an sustainable advice (and indirectly make sure the juniors pick up some real life experience from it). Nothing scary going on.

My point was not well articulated.Where I work those that come in at the "post-MBA" level have substantial work experience. People with PhDs and no work experience come in at the entry level alongside undergrads. They tend to do well at that level and progress quickly, but there is no way they could do well at the "post-MBA" level. To go a step further I would actually say that I would not want someone on my team at that level that had no prior work experience

Sorry guys for the long radio silence but I had alot of work to do..About preparation, if I had to recommend two books I would recommend "Case in Point" and "Interview Like a Top MBA". The first helps with the case studies while the later with the experience interviews.Others worth looking into include books by the Wharton club & Columbia School (Vault's guide is useless from my point of view, very trivial).As for D's remark, I don't understand why would you ridicule a PhD in the first place, but I should mention that I studied an MBA (unofficially) while doing my PhD and acquiring a patent. I was elected President of our student club too. I also worked as PM in a non-profit organization were I redefined our business plan, resulting in cost savings of around 35% I guess you still wouldn't want someone like me "on your team" since I don't have an MBA, but I can say the same back to you: I wouldn't want someone as soar as you to work with... You need to open up and understand that teams made up of experienced MBAs are not necessarily the best thinking machine.. You need a different angle, and this is where I come in with my PhD and patent in 4G Mobile Systems.As our fellow Americans say: "Don't hate the player, hate the game"

Dilemna,I do not remember at any time ridiculing PhDs.Equally I do not remember saying at any point that a team should be composed of MBAs.These firms recruit top MBAs because these candidates have worked somewhere before and done well enough to get into a top school. Ergo, they are likely to continue doing well. A PhD with equivalent work experience would be equally valuable.A PhD (or an MBA) with no work experience would be far less valuable (in my opinion) because they simply won't have the experience in the real world to make the necessary judgements and to help those below them do the same. I work with PhDs all the time that have impeccable credentials but regularly demonstrate this trait. This is not their fault, they just need a year or two and so many will be promoted ahead of their class.I won't comment on whether I would want you on my team as I don't know you or your CV and this is not peraonal. All I will say (again) is that I wouldn't want someone with no full-time work experience working at associate level, the post-MBA level.Two bits of advice:1) Don't take this personally. I am talking in generalisations, you seem to be taking it as a personal slight, and your mildly venomous reaction to my post is a bit OTT. If you end up at McKinsey you will need to get used to far more critical and unpleasant appraisal, despite what they may have told you in your interviews 2) Everyone in the top firms has great academics. If you have a degree and a PhD, for instance, then you have less qualifications than I do. Your PhD and patent and decent extra-curricular activity will be par for the course, nothing more. You might want to hold back on the 'player' talk in your first few months.

D:You specifically said "How does someone with no relevant experience..." and by that i assume you are referring to individuals (like me) with no consulting-specific work experience. Your remark seems to overlook any prior experience not directly related to consulting. My arguement was, and still is, that you need people with different backgrounds (whether from a business or non-business background, with or without prior experience) to build up a strong team. I would also go a step further and say that fresh PhD graduates would still be considered a valuable asset by management consulting firms purely because of their relatively stronger (proven) research capabilities and analytical horsepower.Secondly, If you read the title of this post you will notice that I was offered a Junior Associate postion. This effectively means that I will go through some grooming (one year) before I can become a designated Associate. This, I believe, is fair enough. You on the other hand, suggest that a PhD graduate should enter at a Business Analyst position. Do you seriously think any PhD graduates would accept such an offer?I might have taken a stronger stance than I outght to towards your remarks, and for that I apologise...It's not the first (and definately won't be the last) time I get such remarks. You're right I should grow a thicker skin, I've been given a reasonably good offer with a great firm. I should be grateful and roll with the punches. which would throws 5-7 years of postgrad studies down the drain...

Dilemma,I have to agree with D in some of his remarks. I too have a Ph.D., some professional experience (about 6 years in the finance/trading/tech world), and have recently been offered an Associate position at McK. Before going back to academia I worked for a very meritocratic company in the financial world, with a culture I think is similar to McK (for what I've been told). I don't know what office you're joining, but I consider my background to be up to par with the people I've met there, and if anything I feel less prepared than some of them seem to be. I don't really know skills and capabilities I will be bringing to the team I end up joining. If anything, I consider it a greatly challenging experience, with significant learning potential for me. Hopefully I'll be adding something as well. Likewise, I don't think you really know (yet) what you will bring to the team. If you can take advise from someone in a (perhaps) similar situation, I would tone down the discourse a bit, worry less about what you will be bringing in and hope to learn as much as you can.

Was your PhD related to the professional experience that you gained?

somewhat, but not entirely. My dissertation topic is not really something that is applicable in the real world, if that's what you're asking :).

Kind of. I also have a PhD in a technical but completely irrelevant subject and am currently working in the financial services. I was thinking about applying to McK (again - rejected at final stage) in a couple of years time after gaining more experience.

Dilemna,I don't disagree with you. PhDs clearly have skills that consulting firms value.I do, though, want to make the point that your qualifications will pretty much go out the window as soon as you start - unless you are a physician in a healthcare team or you just happen to be placed on a case in the one area that your PhD focused on, then you simply won't need your PhD knowledge. You will need to learn to apply your superior analytical skills in a new and different way.By 'relevant experience', I mean full-time experience in a high-pressure job for a period of at least a few years. This doesn't need to be consulting, but the majority of people that get into top business schools will have a couple of years of this type of work, and there is no substitute for it. Long hours in high pressure environments making decisions with high stakes is just something that most PhDs have not experienced.So yes, I do think your experience will be valued, but my preference for an associate would always be someone would be more work experience / less qualifications. In two years time you will have 'more experience and more qualifications', which is great, but when you start your first case, go in there with the knowledge that for some time you are going to be less useful than a BA with 1 year of experience.Good luck anyway

"someone with", that should say

Still interetsed in Case Interview Practice??I am looking for some one who can practice with me. I will find the arrangements, what do you say??

Aloke, I'm not sue about the virtues of such an approach. I mean what do you intend to get out of the process. During my case interviews, the key thing is learn all the essential frameworks, go through plent of example (10-15) and then hope for the best.By asking all these process mapping, IT strategy, IT architecture, change management, project management charlatans for advice is a fruitless and wholly unproductive exercise. You may as well ask your neighbours dogZB

Id imagine having to do a case study with ZB would make even the Dalai Lama a violent psychopath. Is the sentance "what the f*ck are you talking about?" regularly heard in your case studies ZB?