Please help! I've been wanting to be a management consultant for, like, ages, but now my friends are telling me I should go and do IB instead cos it's better.What should I do?!

I think IB is better because it pays huge bonuses and although the hours are long, they're not much longer than in consulting plus you don't have all the travel. Plus you can always bail out from an IB and later go work for an FS consulting firm, but you can't do it the other way around.Q. How many Ferrari-driving consultants do you know of? Yet look at the cars parked outside any IB - it's like being at a Ferrari dealership.

That is a excellent point. Too true

I think you under estimate the difference in hours between Ib and consulting. there are many consultancies out there where you can achieve a good work/life balance. You will, however, find that with most IB's you will have no time to drive your lovely Ferrari because you'll be at work all the time.I also think its probably not good idea to base your career choices on the maxim 'cos it's better'. Go with what is going to interest you the most and what you have always wanted to do.

which consultancies offer a good work life balance?

The point about travel is a very important one, whilst you might finish at client site by 7pm (optimistically) if you are then spending the night in a hotel mon - friday you might as well be at work in the city. Just cause you are not 'in the office' with consulting you aren't necessarily doing what you want.

I think it depends what we're talking about being better.In terms of pay IB is better, in terms of pay for hours worked IB is better, in terms of exit ops, IB is probably better. consulting is better only in terms of hours but the above travel point stands true.

I graduated 4 years ago...2 years in industry (non finance) and 2 years as a consultant at one of the big full service firms. If I knew what i know now I would have chosen IB all the way. I am not challenged as a consultant. Despite being a top rated performer, the roles i am getting are a joke and the money is well...sh*£e!I have top grades in technical subjects and graduated in Engineering..I absolutely know I can make it in IB now that I have developed a genuine interest and passion for world markets and companies..realising I can actually use my brain when designing complex derivitive products etc...BUT...HOW DO I GET IN?Is the only way for me a top MBA in finance?? I am prepared to start at a lower level...i will have to...no exp...i am 26. Any thoughts?

Just do an MBA. Safest bet and your CV will look nicer.

Its a long expensive bet tho...do i have a chance to start fresh from the bottum if i apply now u think?

Is it true that all the IB people are nerds, though?

Yeah, nerds who drive Ferraris.

You guys are all completely barking mad. 1) Why do you presume that IB and consulting are in the same league? They are VASTLY different in terms of entry criteria. Even MBBB struggle to be taken seriously by IB and there is extremely little cross over.2) Why do you think that everyone that works in a bank / IB is an antisocial nerd? Why is there this stereotype that people in IB are wacky and socially inept? I can guarantee that lots of 'normal' and fun people work in IB just as much as in FS or any other industry. To answer the previous poster, yes you can easily do an MBA and enter IB as a 28 year old. This is how 95% of people enter IB in the states - and if you would spend 3 minutes of your time doing research you will see that every bank has its own dedicated MBA recruitment system. Your IB will have to be finance orientate and in a top 10 school bar none. But just fyi, im 28, in IB, previously in consulting, i enjoy a drink, dont have a ferrari ( but a scooter), am not a nerd, and like to have fun / play / music / party whatever just as much as the next guy in my age group. the only difference is that yes i work on average 90 hours a week but then again i earn well too. theres my 2 cents

I wish you were hot, Sophie. But if you're in IB, it's unlikely, moreover, you seem like the materialistic type. But otherwise, I like your 'tude. It's a shame the finer things in life are often wasted on 'finance heads' who know nothing else. 90 hours a week....when is there time for any other pursuits?

Hi Jobe....Despite my nick and the things I say about IB, I'm actually a 34 yr old man who works as a consultant. I just find that people are friendlier to me if I use a female nick online. :)

Who said the IB exit opportunities are better? You can leave IB to go in to....somewhere else in financial services, which is a hugely cyclical industry. Yeah, work hard, earn your money and do what you do over and over again to make your cash, best of luck to you. I'm 8 years in to consulting now and even though the bull run of the last 5 years would have been good to be in IB, I'm happy I've got a career with many options on the table and not just groundhog day.

Thats the best point made so far. the idea that the exit opportunities from IB are bette than consulting is absolutely b*ll*cks. Consulting gives you a spread of skills and industry experience. IB teaches you about finance then you can go and work in another IB. Accountants have a better chance of an industry finance job than an IB'er.IB has one thing going for it which is salary. That is of course a significant one

Are you kidding??Having Goldman Sachs on your CV is a statement. It says "I can do anything". It says "No matter what you ask me to do, I'll do it better than anyone else you could employ".Having CapGem or KPMG or the like on your CV says "I'm pretty competent, but nothing special really".I can see no circumstance whatsoever where an employer would favour someone with GS on their CV over someone from KPMG for instance. It's like comparing someone who has a Nobel Prize or came top of their class in HBS to someone who has a Diploma from some academy.

Why on earth would you want to go from IB to industry finance dep't?From IB you can go to hedge fund, PE, private banking, strategy consulting, all sorts of stuff. True, all finance areas but i don't care about my process flows and status reports enough tomiss out on these sort of options!

You aren't comparing apples with apples though. of course goldman sachs on your CV opens a lot of doors as does have MckinseyNot the same with citigroup though is it just the same as KPMG

You guys make me laugh. Only in consulting do people talk about 'exit strategy'! Cause its the only miserable job that people want to get out of. You see, banking is a PROFESSION - a banker is like a doctor, lawyer, engineer etc. You dont hear a GP saying " ill join that hospital to move into electronics"Of course i am over exagerating - however my point stands true. You need to stop thinking that all the people in the world use thier jobs as a platform for another - this is just a symptom of a person that isnt settled in a role and unhappy in life. Is this perhaps because consulting makes you a jack of all trades and master of none?And to the top poster - any investment bank is better on your cv than KPMG, ANY. It is a different job, in a different league. Why do you think that analysts at IB get paid more than senior managers in a big 4? Because the CEOs of the bulge brackets are stupid and throw money away? No. Because the analyst at 21yrs out of uni contributes enough to a companies profits to MERIT 100k a year. It is called market rate. Ill tell you where people go after banking : retirement! Get over yourself!

I thought I had made my point in thread 17150???????I'll repeat it for your benefit, out of a true generosity of spirit:"Right, let's put this debate to bed: MC - 5 figure salary for the majority. 6 figure salary is you are very lucky. And if you are in the top 5% you can become partner and make millions. IB - work for 5-10 years and retire. 7 figure bonuses. IB is intense for a few years but it then enables you to retire and live a life of leisure sneering at career consultants. STOP PRETENDING THAT CONSULTING IS ON A PAR WITH BANKING. CONSULTING IS ON A PAR WITH BEING AN ESTATE AGENT OR HEADHUNTER."

I didn't say consulting was better, but if you want a life, money and keep your sanity it's a very good option. Oh, and Goldman Sachs employ idiots too, not everyone that gets through the door is a genius or has the potential to make million pound bonuses.

Dont put headhunting in the same basket as consulting mate - we look down on them as much as you bankers.

And clivester - the figures you bandy around are complete and utter rubbish.

Work for 5-10 years then retire?Maybe asuperstar trader could retire then but unless you want a very modest existence most bankers certainly wont be retiring after 5 years when they are a 2nd yr associate and after 10 will be making MD if they aren't dead/depressed/crazy and probably won't retire straight away...

Okay, I guess IB is better. It's just a bit scary, though. I've got a couple of offers from the MBB firms and the deadline to turn them down will expire before I find a job with an IB.Wish me luck!

liar, liar, pants on fire!

it depends on what you really wanted and which of the two provide them better.

Oh, hi Clivester!hows your PhD going? :)

Grad,You have two offers from MBB? That means you must be a reasonably smart guy. Are you seriously considering basing your career decision (consulting vs IB) on a slanging match on an unmoderated message board? That is absolute madness. If you actually have offers from MBB go and talk to some of the guys at the firms, find out what they do and whether you might enjoy it. Then, go and speak to some IB'ers (it cannot be beyond your wits to find some contacts in a Bulge Bracket) and do the same, then come to a reasoned decision. Whatever you do, DO NOT base your decision on a "my dad is bigger than your dad conversation" presided over by 12 year olds.For my two cents, consulting is a very mixed bag (more so than IB), but the best firms do truly interesting work, pay well and allow you to pretty much do anything you want later in your career (be that industry, banking, PE, government etc etc). In terms of the calibre of graduates I would say that (at least for my firm) the average quality of successful applicants is higher than for a top bank (yes, including Goldman Sachs). The reason is simply that McKinsey might take on 15-30 grads in a year, GS take on hundreds. If you have got MBB offers I'm sure you can get banking ones (all the grads I know at our firm who applied to banks at the same time got the banking offers they wanted).

Thank you MBB for adding some sanity to this thread, rather than the usual, "how many consultants do you see driving Ferraris?".

Grad,Did you defer or something, because how the hell did you get offers from MBB when they haven't even started interviewing yet?

Just to reply to MBB up there with his post that Mck highers better quality grads:This is absolue balls. Firstly Goldman hires 25 graduates in IB a year - perhaps 30 - so get your facts straight. Citigroup's ENTIRE investment banking division is circa 350 people - if you think they hire 'hundreds' of Grads youre mad. Also, at top banks we use centralised offices (ie. Lodon will often cover most of European, N. African and M Eastern geography) with some exceptions. This is NOT the case for MBB, where local offices are plenty an well staffed. Therefore even if some banks hire more than Bain - this is because they essentially have a bigger london base. Lastly, which is just obvious, is that they are much much larger organisations, have more work, and thus require more people. How is this not obvious?Finally, my two cents on reccomendation. Consulting will allow you to do many things afterwards. Banking is an actual career. Just something to think about.

I love how IBers constantly feel the need to justify themselves on an MC site, perpetually forcing the money aspect. It seems they've realised the hideous hours they have to work, the mundane nature of the work and the generally horrific work/life balance. It's almost as if deriding MC is a way of reasserting their own decision - otherwise why bother? Why do IBers come to this site anyway? If it's just to snipe at how much better IB is, then I fear insecurity has got the best of them. If you think MC is so bad, then DON'T DO IT. You seem to enjoy your IB jobs, so why come here to bemoan MC? I think it's great you love IB so much, but it's not for me. The brash arrogance from these IBers seems to belie their desperate need for self-justification. Frankly, I don’t care how much money you make. If that’s your justification for your chosen ‘profession’ I pity you.

Dear MC'rs - your world = lonely nights in a travelodge, dipping custard creams into your tea cup.My world = relaxing on the family yacht, preparing for a life of learning, leisure and opulence.

"the hideous hours they have to work, the mundane nature of the work and the generally horrific work/life balance"Applies to MC just as much as it does IB.

That's great Clive, good luck to you. Hopefully it's all been worth it. On the subject of hours, yes MC's don't seem to be the best, but on average, they seem better than IB (save MBB perhaps), although not proportionally so in terms of pay. But once again, if money's that important, then don't go into MC.

"Citigroup's ENTIRE investment banking division is circa 350 people - if you think they hire 'hundreds' of Grads youre mad"Just curious as to where this assertion came from. I'm working at Citi IB presently - there's rather more than 350 people on each floor of the building. Even if you exclude IT, Finance etc that figure is way off...

"Citigroup's ENTIRE investment banking division is circa 350 people"I assume he means "WILL BE circa 350 people after Rubin fires the lot of you".

I like custard creams...

and I like lonely nights in a travelodge! dude show some respect!

This "Goldman Sachs on your CV means you can do anything" crap, genuinely you live in a fantasy world! Wow, you can read some consultant reports and create a model of the business, you guys are so, like, totally out there! (note to reader, I'm British, so that comment was clearly sarcasm). Please prove to us that everyone in investment banking is retired by age 32 (an average 10 years after graduating) because to say the least I'm slightly sceptical. (note to American readers, it's spelt with a 'c')However, for the young uns out there looking to make decisions, then do genuinely choose what motivates you. Much of the recruitment market out there is purely driven by brand and you really often don't know what you're getting yourself in for, so choose a company where you like the people and you know you'll fit in, what comes after that is pretty much the same anyway just with a different badge on it. If you truly like the sound of loads of hours and loads of money, then pick IB. If you want variation and impact, choose consulting. And, finally, if you want to be employed in 2-3 years time, choose consulting as the banks may crap their pants anytime soon - and the "retirees" from GS may well be phoning you up for a job.

People's opinions on this subject are quite interesting. Having had good experience of both IB and consulting recruitment 1st hand, and knowing a number of grads starting at several bulge brackets I would just say this.The point about consultancies being more selective with graduate hire is generally a valid one. Despite the fact that many top IBs only take on 25-30 Investment Banking grads each year, one must remember that the vast majority of these are recruited from interships. These internships generally take more like 50 bright young interns on to a department, and then offer the 30-40% of them that can hack the hours a job. I do not speak of other areas in IBs, but in IBD specifically, as intership hours are worst here and from my experience the majority of interns that have displayed the necessary fortitude when dealing with these hours have been offered jobs. Simple as that (bear in mind I can only speak from experience).Consultancies recieve thousands of graduate CVs (Bain recieved 3000 last year for example FACT) and hire about 1 in 100 after a stringent case interview process. I'd say if you were to walk into a Mckinsey grad presentation and a GS IB one you'd find a far greater percentage of Oxbridge educated, heavily extra curricular kids than the GS ones.Just my rambling 2 cents - this of course has no bearing on which career is 'better' (if such an arbitary question can indeed ever be answered).

Thats because, again, consulting is not a career, a technical profession, and therefore you can apply with a degree in arts or music or biology. This is NOT the case in IB - there are very very few people that are not educated in economics, business, mathematics etc. There seems to be a "novelty" to apply to MBBB especially because of the fact people enter in consulting later on in life. the majority of people in finance enter as graduates, and then continue thier careers switching companies and departments but oftentimes in the same field. Finally, most banks require online mathematical tests to even attend an presentation. MBBB do not. I have attended several presentations in both fields and have found that the people there are a majority of loons that believe that they are MBB material, with a few handful of potential candidates. At a GS presentation a greater majorty of people will be actual candidates rather than illuded music students that want to be the next Bill Gates.

???,I don't know why, but THEY called ME.

So many responses... it's hard to know what to think.

Whatever Merlin, most IBers are the most uninspiring, dull people I have ever met. All they know, or talk about is banking/finance. Total philistines. Sure, they may be maths geeks, but who wants to talk about derivative formulas at the dinner table? Get a life FFS.

Clive - Prior to becoming a MC, I began a social and public sector career after declining a position with GS' NYC office (in M & A no less) when I finished university at 20. I declined because it was clear that the path would inhibit my opportunity to work on social issues and my ability to engage in meaningful relationships in the absence of any discretionary time (for clarification, I am in the same outstanding relationship that I was in back then because working as an MC in a dynamic environment on diverse projects with other interesting MCs 70-90 hours per week still allows for a modicum of w/l balance). When you are able to replace "big boat" with "healthy, amazing relationship" and "flashy car" with "really bright, interesting friends", you will understand how completely narcissistic you sound.

The problem with IBers is that their hokey "profession" is all about maintaining a cartel, and has little to do with creating value. So the only way they can really attain status is by bragging to each other.

I'm an MC (9 years experience in biz transformation, software imp, and change) with an MBA wanting to move into IB or Private Wealth. Tell me how! What's the best argument to offer recruiters/banks for making the switch? Advice from all welcome! Hey clivester, would love to hear your thoughts particularly...

<b><big>WELL, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHICH ONE&apos;S "BETTER", ONE THING&apos;S FOR SURE... IB CERTAINLY PAYS A HECK OF A LOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!</big></b>

It is really kiddish to compare Goldman Sachs to CapGem / KPMG. You would compare GS to Mck / Bain and KMPG to a second / third tier IB. With McK on your CV, you will be looked at by Blackstone and same for GS on your CV. From McK you can be the CEO, from GS IB you can be the CFO. Both have good exit options. GS probably has better - because finance skills reward with more money in the medium term.I am a consultant, I travel a lot and I do not earn a lot. IB pays well, IB provides better exit ops - but there is no way I can do 90-100 hours even for double / triple the money. I cannot do it - thats it. Ofcourse, doing credit derivative structuring is a different career altogether. It pays well, not as much as IB, but more than consulting. But then - no exit options. You become a specialized product in yourself. Again, I think its good work and a great career - but not for me.However, if you work with any of the third tier consulting firms - you are better of doing equity research, FX trading (the pit jobs in banks) in any second tier IB. No second thoughts on that.

I worked at Macquarie as a PE analyst. There were buckets of people from Goldman. 2 from Mck. So yes, PE does take them on, but not as much as direct banking. What you will find more true, is that PE loves people that have both on thier CV - usually 2 years as analyst in MBB then MBA then 3-5 years in IB - then PE. That is the traditional route into private equity. I left to go to IB and best deciscion ever!

First post!!!

First post!!!

Hey I have been granted authority to be the ultimate voice on this :-)The facts (well really my own views that I believe to be the facts and may jolly well not be!)Hours:- Typical consulting hours would be to leave the house at 7.45pm and arrive home at 7.30pm/8pm- Typical IB hours would be to leave home at 7am and arrive home at 11pm- However arriving home at 7.30pm/8pm means you do not have time to do anything social with your evening - however you WILL have time to watch Eastenders & Ugly Betty- Unfortunately when people look back on their lives, having watched Ugly Betty tends not to feature in the top 10 highlightsPay:Consulting, Good. IB: Better (x2). There is also the option of working in the commerical side of RBS, Barclays ec, rather than the investment side, which seem to give you salaries slightly more than Consulting and a somewhat better work/lifeSkills:Consulting makes you a well rounded person with people and analytical skills. Don&apos;t under estimate this - these are skills that would make a great leader. (Unfortunately you also become fluent in speaking jargon)IB: You&apos;re industry knowledge, and in particular that of stock markets becomes great. You become a great specialist.Career Opps:IB - you can go work in any finance dept in any companyConsulting: You can choose which area you are interested in and guide your career to make you knowledgable about the area in order to move in later. You may not be able to get into Investment Banking (i.e. an actual treader) however, but you can get into Financial Services in generalConclusion:- Think hard about whether you would be happy to go through life on a 70-80k salary, or whether you would be enviouse of those who were on 100k-1m+ salaries- Think about whether you want to have the people skills or just finance skills (note: That is not to say finance people don&apos;t have people skills, just that on average they are not likely to be as developed)****This Discussion is now closed***** Amen

A truly excellent thread. I have been getting unfair and unwarranted criticism on this forum because of my steadfast and unyielding insistence on having only relevant threads on this fora. I think the quality of the preceding thread shows this, although this is slighlty tempered by the ludricious and non-sensical name of the personZbigniew Brzezinski

Looks like a troll thread to me, ZB. We have this discussion once a month. Fail to see how having it again and again improves the quality of the forum.

Of course, it&apos;s entirely possible that ZB is a troll. In which case, boy do I feel stupid.

"IB - you can go work in any finance dept in any company" No you can&apos;t. Any bank, may be. Any company, no. You&apos;ll have no real commercial experience

yeah I thought about this later. What I should have written is you won&apos;t need to work anywhere else as you can simply retire early. You wouldn&apos;t be able to be a CFO at any company you are right, but I&apos;m sure a lot would take you on at a less senior role. But the trouble is the pay would be 20-30% of what you are used to earning.

thats rubbish. after IB you can work in any company, any industry - which aligned to your industry in your IB department.Finance guy - youre completely wrong - actually what you say is absurd. do you know how well IBers know the industry in which they operate? They know it inside out, much better than a consultant for example, because they have to model every single operation stream, revenue cycle, cost, tax etc etc.A person that does Telecoms M&A for 15 years will know everything at least in par with someone in the industry, PLUS all the investment side. Just look at any board of any bluechip and you will find myriads of people with IB background.Lastly, the most common place for IBers to go once they want to move over is business development. Stop blabing nonsene if you dont know what youre talking about!

bump

Is it true that IBers play connect 4, while MC play noughts and crosses?

"They know it inside out, much better than a consultant for example, because they have to model every single operation stream, revenue cycle, cost, tax etc etc."So what if someone from IB knows a business better than a consultant. Who has better eyesight - Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles. "because they have to model every single operation stream" Modelling doesn&apos;t equal knowing a business inside out and doesn&apos;t equate to commercial experience.May be (big may be) someone from IB could get a job anywhere. May be an industry they&apos;re "aligned" to. But they&apos;d do an absolutely crap job because they won&apos;t have a clue. And if you have worked in industry you would understand how right this statement is intuitively.

given that there appear to be lots of people who know about IB sharing their opinions on this site, is there an equivalent IB site where I could read the insecurities they share amongst themselves?

top-ib.com

Fair point made by Bannana about industry knowledge. I was just thinking about it from the point of view that they would have no experience of improving businesses and the whole change process that involves (managing people, projects, defining a strategy and so on)Business Development - would that be modelling the financial implications of a particular strategy?

Nope!BAdAB00m!

Consulting is better than being on the dole.At least, you get paid a bit more for doing nothing!

I&apos;m not sure the bankers who pocketed the odd million pound bonus are bothered about a bit of &apos;bench time&apos;

How about those who didn&apos;t and were merely chasing money at the start of their careers?

Consulting industry teams are full of former failed IB-ers. IB&apos;s finance, hr, ops, tech and risk departments are full of former successful consultants.

Name an example

Count the ex ACNs at UBS and BarCap. Conversely look at the ranks of Capco, IBM...I have interviewed ex FX and IRS traders for consultancy roles in an IB practice - the issue is always &apos;if you&apos;re a good enough trader to advise others, why are you applying for an £80K role here?&apos; &apos;course, current times are a little different on that point..

So, you&apos;re comparing bottom-decile "consultancies" to upper-quartile banks. What an impressive grasp of research techniques you have - I&apos;ll bet you got an "upper-third" at university.

What sort of role would someone from Acc be doing to get a job at BarcCap?

For most part, IB paysd better than consulting, but ib-ers have more risky job than consulting, plus they usually have to work harder than consultants.

C3PO,At a guess they were probably putting in a big IT system or working as part of an implementation in some other capacity and moved in house. I&apos;d be very surprised if they are moving to front office roles. Same stuff, different firm more money I suspect.