I am ex BIG 4 Manager (17 years overall experience) and have been doing contracting from last 5 years....average billing 9 months per year...average rate £550....currently seeking £650 and in discussion with a number of banks...have been on £90K cash component in perm role previously..Not enjoying contracting very much to be honest...the assignments have been “very challenging” big budgets £10-£15 million, big teams...however, what I am not liking is despite of having an entry level SVP profile if I see my peer contractors who have been on £50K-£60K basic and too junior to my profile are also on almost similar day rates and rubbing shoulders with me (and they know nothing about project management which frustrates me even more as I need to work with them and educate them)...moreover my line managers are no more senior to me and that frustrates me when people inexperienced than me becomes my boss...and due to these frustrations I have been leaving contracts in between or not accepting extensions with a view to move into different bank where I might get a better working environment...last 2 years has been terrible from these frustration perspective as I have moved banks every 4-6 months (sometime went back to the same bank thinking that domain of the bank/ team might be better than my earlier one but I have been wrong)....leaving contracts in between or not accepting extension have not made any impact on my credibility as I have been hired by those banks again and again for different roles...I appreciate as a contractor these things shouldn’t matter to me but what are my options if they do matter to me? After all having worked with 2 BIG4s and holding a leading MBA wasn’t done to rub shoulders with contractors who has been on £50-£60K basic....or reporting to someone who doesn’t earn more than £70K-£80K basic...My contracting career have been stressed due to lack of personal satisfaction...yes I made more money than what I would have made as perm but it seems other things i.e. seniority in the organisation...being valued for the work...further growing into my career are taking a toll and becoming far more important than money alone...I am getting tired of kind of environments I have been working in....I am never short of contracts (due to I charge reasonable day rate of £550 for my profile but can easily move to £600-£650)...and it seems I am fed up with contracting...Shall I give up contracting? Or shall I only do roles which comes at a day rate of £650 (might have to see downtime due to not being flexible on day rate).. to ensure I am getting right seniority roles? I have very strong SPM and entry level programme manager....Or I should go perm and get rid of all these contracting issues I have been facing? At present a number of Investment Banks are taking interest in my profile for £95K basic salary VP roles...pluse bonus and benefit package takes overall package to £130K....but if I only see basic i.e. £5K take home per month and that is almost 40% less than what I make as contractor...that demotivates me as well in Short term...but looking at the bigger picture...i.e. in 5-10 years...I can grow a lot...and make more money “hopefully”....Some genuine advise will be really appreciated....at the moment I am being interviewed for both £650 contracting role and £95K perm roles and I am sure both perm and contract roles will be on my way in a month or two....but which way I should go next? Shall I give another chance to contracting? I believe once I accept perm then it will be end of contracting considering I would then like to focus on long term career progression rather to make short term quick money....I do not want to jump the ship every year or two i.e. contracting> perm > contracting> perm...BTW....I am currently with an Investment Bank on £550 and completely frustrated due to above mentioned concerns...Apologies for not polishing this e-mail and not doing grammatical checks.....

Understandable frustration. But put it into context.Let's assume for now that you take a perm position as a VP in IBD. You have traded in your 17 years experience to get a VP role in an investment bank.Now what happens?Below you, you'll have interns, grad analysts and associates. The associates look down n the grads, they've earn the right after all. But their life is hell. So they resent you, the VP. Meanwhile you are feeling better because you aren't rubbing shoulders with the grunts anymore...but hang on, you are a grunt. The MDs are looking down on you. So you go find an MC. Make it worthwhile so you find yourself a McKinsey or BCG consultant. I look down on you McKinsey minion because Im in IBD. Master of the Universe. But now the MD doesn't respect your 17 years experience, and s/he is younger than you, making multiples of your money. His suit cost as much a your car. WTF. So you want to be MD. No more rubbing shoulders with those cheap VPs anymore. Top of the heap. But then you see someone from PE and..they are looking down on you. Cant get into the PE lounge, cant afford it as an MD in a IBD. Sod that, better get buy side PDQ. Uh oh...here comes an Asset Manager's star trader. Earns more than you'll see in your career - every year. He only has 15 years experience and is retiring next spring. Damn what now? What now?Go contracting? That way you can leave soon as you have to rub shoulders with anyone who might have earnt the same quicker, or easier, and find other malcontented people to cluster together talking about the good old days at Big 4 when everyone knew your name?2 x Big 4 and an MBA means squat to an IBD. You underestimate the sheer level of excellence they take as standard. So someone earns less and you report to them - you are a hired gun! You are not a stakeholder! You don't need to decide whether contract or perm. You need to decide how you will get this chip off your shoulder that everyone should somehow be recognising you for your intrinsic excellence and get on with your working life. As a contractor you have no say in the business, you are there to do a job and go. Lighten up - you'll be happier.

hahaha...putting the things into perspective I am into project and programme management....so no I won't have grads...interns...I will be reporting into senior programme managers and would not be competing with MDs...asset traders...I am 37 so I would not think anyone younger than me will be my boss in IB or in any perm role.....it takes enough experience to be a senior programme manager managing £50m budgets....Mr cool is in his mid 40s if I am not wrong....2XBIG4+MBA and significant years expereice does mean something even for IB....so long as we do not loose the focus that I am talking about project and programme manageemnt domain of IB...You made one good point though..."As a contractor you have no say in the business, you are there to do a job and go"..so that's another reason why I am considering perm roles over contracting i.e. being valued for the the work...I am not saying I am the sharpest brain on this planet...all I am saying I get frustrated when people around me are not smart enough...my peers...my bosses....my job gets boaring as there is nothing to learn from them....I did meet sharp people during my BIG4 days but finding it hard to work with those calibre on contracting assignments....I am serious mate...I would not mind taking constructive feedback as to whether my expectations to work with bright people...having more capable bosses than me...rubbing sholders with peers who really climbed the ladder to be there... (any damn 2-3 years PM experience can make £450-£500 a day) however, NO ONE without being experienced enough/high calibre can get £95K basic/Top band of VP with banks/IB....

Might be time to shift down a gear and find happiness somewhere other than the workplace...Big salaries are great but the added stress and responsibility often means that it's better to be a postman or something.Maybe move out of London and get a big house in the country, enjoy life and take a 50% pay cut? Rather than trying to compete with Warren Buffet on the career ladder?

Forgive me as this may sound a little naive as I don't have a background in project and programme management, but maybe this is as good as it gets?Let's face it, PM's don't make CEO. You may have reached the pinnacle of a PM career. Though you may be a very capable PM, as a PM, you'll very rarely get to participate in building or influencing the direction of a business. PM's just don't do this. The function of project and programme delivery was never going to be intellectually challenging compared to other parts of the business. Your function is to deliver a predefined change set out by the business and the value of your input is how to effectively deliver that change, not influence what that change should be. Additionally, because it's purely a delivery function, you will constantly get juniors, up and down. You don't need to be an intellectual or lateral thinker to become a good PM. You need endurance and balls of steel to deal with the constant bullshit. I have a few colleagues that have taken the PPM path and the ones who are genuinely happy are those that never had the ambition to be more. They are happy with the money and the ability to enjoy other pursuits in life.I suggest if you really want to find happiness in your career, gain that respect and industry value, without wasting your 17 years of PM success, then join the bank and have a long term view to move up and gain that personal satisfaction. Alternatively, look for PM style consulting firms where you could take a role to grow that firm and find that personal respect and satisfaction from your internal team.

No..................................................After project, there's programme. After programme, there's portfolio. Don't you just love the PMI? Though I don't think they have a portfolio qualification.

How about moving to a COO type function?

[quote]No..................................................After project, there's programme. After programme, there's portfolio. Don't you just love the PMI? Though I don't think they have a portfolio qualification.[/quote]PfMP - new portfolio manager qualification! I'll stick with my PMP for now...

They should introduce another layer after portfolio, maybe "mega portfolio"

[quote]They should introduce another layer after portfolio, maybe "mega portfolio"[/quote]Keep it simple - king of projects

Executive Super Fantastic God of Portfolio, Programme and Project Management.Seriously, forget contracting and consulting. Just open up a strip club or porn site and live it up.

You are all thinking too small here....the only way forwards after portfolio is to transform yourself into a nexus of pure PMI thought itself, become the very concept of PMI embodied. Try saying PMI without saying each letter and you have the whistling sounds emitted by a pure pminess guru in deep portfolio trance.

and before anyone asks, the sound of pure headhunterism is similar to flatulence lol

new salutation?PM-Inence...as in...your eminence? no?I'll get my coat

"I am PMO"

I didn't want to start a new thread as the points are somewhat similar. Even if i didn't find a direct answer.I currently work as a Manager in a big 4. A few friends have jumped onto the contracting wagon (times are good for contractors i know) and are loving life. I speculatively went to an interview at an IB and have been offered a good day rate, on a 2y (6m rolling) contract.I just don't know if i should take the jump....I have a good career, apparently. I won't lie, I'm scared.I know (most of) the pro's and con's, and know its my mind to be made up. But any advice people from both sides can give would be great. AKA, - How much do you poop your pants everytime you approach a new contract/extension.- Is it really possible to jump back into perm?- Is the career progression you miss out on worth missing out on?- How likely is it you get cancelled? (aka how bad do you have to be).

- How much do you poop your pants everytime you approach a new contract/extension.I don't. When I went contracting, I had saved up enough that could last me a couple years of unemployment. One year down the line, it was probably 4 years of unemployment. If you have enough aside, you basically can't lose unless you try to set fire to the client or fall badly ill.- Is it really possible to jump back into perm?Christ, of course yes. Turn your CV into a list of tiny project credentials. It'll be impossible to tell what you did as a contractor from what you did as a perm. Worse comes to worst, you can go back to any Big4 with at least a senior consultant grade. Manager is a good grade to go contracting: you've had enough time with people beneath you but I guess it's not an embarassment to do consultant work for contracting rates. The reality is that you can go for both PM contracts and consultant contracts.- Is the career progression you miss out on worth missing out on?Not a days goes by without thinking of all that development and assessment nonsense I had to do on SAP. And I just love not having to do it anymore.But if you liked that sense of comraderie *canned laughter?* you get in a firm, the respect, the human dimensiona and blah blah blah, you might miss it. As a contractor, you are some kind of lone wolf.- How likely is it you get cancelled? (aka how bad do you have to be). Just be as dutiful as you were in your Big4. You made it to manager so chances are you weren't that bad. You might be surprised of the enthusiasm you get from being paid a sexy daily rate.You seem in a pretty good position to go contracting, so your hesitation sounds kinda funny to me (unless you have some serious financial commitments). I guess your firm has done a good job at making you believe there's no jobs outside of them.

Great reply, thanks for the time taken to respond. My issues were more that I wasn't looking at contracting until an interview came along (half out of the blue).

If you weren't looking for it, probably you didn't think you needed it. If you didn't think you needed it, there is a chance you don't really need it.Can't quite answer those questions, they're personal ones.

Sounds good