hi all,Could anyone help me out with a definition of the 'business casual' dress code. I'm afraid I'm a bit new to city life and am attending an induction for a big4 soon.Are there any other clothing definitions I should be aware of?Thanks

wear chinos with an ironed shirt... conservative colour such as white or blue is fine. no tie.

forgot to give you this advice:dress as you would if you were at home and your boss was visiting for dinner.you'd ditch the metallica t-shirt and put on some trousers right?

to be honest suit with shirt and no tie will suffice. I've never worn anything but that.

Brown suits for business casual - acceptable? I happen to have two very nice ones but have always thought that they are inappropriate for work. Am I right?

On a related note - where would people recommend to buy suits in London for around £200-300?

tm lewin but marks and spencers is surprisingly good and cheaper.

Check out Moss bros for nice suits

Wouldn't recommend brown suit. Black or navy blue would be better.

much appreciated, thanks.

"dress as you would if you were at home and your boss was visiting for dinner."Really? Even if you are sha**ing your boss and your mutually agreed atire is, um, minimal?

dark jeans and a shirt with shoes is fine

Please please do NOT go down the chinos route... Dreadful...Austin Reed for suits (often do a 2 for £500 promotion) and T.M. Lewim for shirts (4 for £100), no tie for business casual. Looks smart and means that all you need to worry about is grabbing a tie if you have an urgent call to a client. Chinos - good god...

king & allen for suitshttp://www.kingandallen.co.uk/For shirtshttp://www.hawesandcurtis.com

How can King and Allen do 'bespoke suits' in the £200-£300 price range? Have you any experience of the quality as it sounds worth a go but makes me wonder what corners they are cutting

Chinos but only if you are an American......people will let you off then as you would not be expected to know any better. Brown is a no no especially in the City. Dark/gray suit with crisp shirt with or without tie. Check out the people in the office and see what they wear!

essentially dont stray much from a dark grey or navy suit with black shoes and neutral shirts and you will be fine. A simple tie when needed.no no'sbrown or even black suitchinosjeanstracksuitstrainerstshirtscartoon ties / sockstoo much jewelleryshiny suitspale suits

I think most replies are really to explain "business causal" in the daily working environments. However, how about attending the introduction program, which is actually the point of the question as well, I guess.Suits + no tie certaintly is appropriate, which I will most likely to follow for the daily job...but I just don't wanna over-dressed for the introduction, when everyone else don't wear suits at all...any personal experiences?

At the induction, most people tend to overdress for the first day, to be on the safe side. Depending on how long the induction lasts, they may then relax their dress code over the course of the programme as they get a better feel for how (in)formal the induction is.Dress code is very often one of the topics of the induction so I wouldn't be surprised if one of the instructors gave you some direct guidance.

Regarding what to wear to an induction, I'd think you could ask your HR representative these specific questions on dress as they would certainly know and are used to this question - they should be your guide.For all you women consultants, those who have partners who are women consultants, and for those who happen to know -- where, where, where can women find great suits for the city that are A, not too sexy B, high quality and C, not too trendy? I'm dying to know please!!

casual dress = shoes with shine, trousers with a crease, shirt with a collar plus a dose of common sense, i.e. no hawaiian shirt!

I tend to get most of my suits in Zara these days, as the mix and match options are good and make accessorising easy. I got a surprisingly nice one out of Wallace. I currently have a govt client so don't splash too much cash.

I have some suits from King&Allen and they are fantatstic. They take about 8 weeks to arrive. They have no stores in London and set up fitting rooms in various London locations (Bank, Liv/ Street etc). They measure and photo you and then you pick up the suit weeks later. Quality is way better than Austin Reed and TM Lewins believe me. I still have my Austin Reed suit but I am embarassed to wear it. It looks so cheap next to a bespoke suit.

Interesting that all the advice in this thread seems to focus on male attire for business casual:Seems the consensus for a guy is around a dark suit (black, navy, charcoal?), black shoes and socks, pale shirt. Have a tie to hand that goes with the shirt. You can keep this in your pocket while you scope out the rest of the attendees and retire to a quite bathroom to put it on should the need arise. Of course, you can also ditch the suit jacket over the back of a chair. So you wind up with, effectively, slacks and an open shirt.If our original poster is female, I'd go with much the same advice. Skirt and matching jacket in dark tones or perhaps a dark trouser suit. If a skirt, on or just above the knee is good. Fitting, shaped, but not tight. A pale blouse, buttoned in front, and not open enough to display all your wares. Also ensure the blouse is not transparent and be careful to wear appropriately coloured underwear to cater. Minimal jewelry. Small earings, studs or small hoops, not dangling. Perhaps a slim chain and pendant for the neck. Dark stockings or tights. Dark shoes with a small heel, but that's really up to the individual need. No toe-peepers.Overall, the idea is to be comfortable in your dress. Don't wear something just for the occasion that you wouldn't be comfortable wearing in "downtime" in the office. Comfort in your surroundings, that is, as well as comfortable for your body and the conditions.Remember too that this is for a Big 4 assessment, so take a clue there. This is not a media gig, so turning up in a caftan probably won't cut it.Hope that makes sense.

I agree with the suit with no tie option. in terms of where to get them. Hawkes and Curtis are slightly better than TM Lewin. If you are in London look to Jermyn Street - you will find what you need. THe key for suit buying is to try to avoid doing it in a rush. Cheap suits are a real give away and make you look like a school boy. You need to pop into Selfridges and/or the outlets of Hugo Boss or some of the higher tier Saville Row shops whenever you get the chance. Get to know what suits you. If you are of slim build, Hugo Boss are now "tightening some of their jackets and wil make alterations is required. The Italian makes also work. You have missed most of the sales now, although the boss shop on Regent street still has some options. A few years back, I picked up a high quality Saville Row suit for 350, which would usually cost 800 (probably a lot more now). You really should not compromise on suits and shoes. I am no fashion expert but the M&S suit with Clarkes shoes mark you out as a junior and will make it hard for senior people to take you seriously. First impressions last and in this line of work, you need to exude success. So drop into the top level shops every now and again. If there is a bargain to be had with regards to suits or shoes, go for it, even if you do not actually need the item there and then. In car terms it is the difference between meeting a client in a Mercedes as against a Skoda

"In car terms it is the difference between meeting a client in a Mercedes as against a Skoda"And the difference is what exactly?

For my big 4 interviews a couple of years ago I wore suit & tie, which seemed to be what most people did and seemed appropriate for an interview.In general, just suit/trousers with open neck shirt of decent quality. Would rather not turn up looking ready for a round of golf.Try Paul Smith sale shop in Avery row for suits.

incidentally, it's worth noting that in the majority of cases, no-one cares where your suit is from, this isn't investment banking.I see partners who look certainly don't wear designer suits and wear 20 quid watches. What you do is more important than your attire.

If I turned up at a client site wearing a £600 designer suit I would be totally out of place. My clients are normal people, not gordon geckos

So besides Zara for women, is king and allen also good for women? Any other suggestions? boxershorts, that was some very specific advice, thanks. Any word on hair length for women or men? And if as a female consultant engaged primarily in selling, are there any understood, accepted modifications to dress code? Don't colours and more flair become more utilized? tks

partners can wear what they like... they have made it.

do a bit of research into the subject of dress/presentation in the workplace verses promotion prospects/chances of getting hired. How often does the shoulders back, 6 ft, rugby playing public school boy with the expensive suit get snapped up over the more talented Matalan wearing short fat bloke from the north. From a female perspective, how often does the attractive blond in prada get employed infront of the spotty academic. Whatever systems are put in place, the sub-conscious plays a very big part in hiring decisions. It is unfair but this is how it is. If you are so brilliant that you do not need to play the system a bit, good for you. If you are more realistic, you should play every card available to you. If you rock up to an interview looking like it is the first time you have had to "dress up posh" (I mean wear business attire, not clothe a former spice girl), you are bound to reduce your chances in comparison to people who dress, act and look like they already work for the company and will fit in naturally. We all start out as young, idealistic graduates but by the time you have seen a couple of smarter, better presented plodders get promoted in front of you despite a lack of ability, you start to learn that appearance counts for a lot more than it should

Following the discussion whether you should go for a desinger suit or not...I guess everyone has their own stands and preference...not really a "yes/no" question...Certainly, for the suits, you should always go for the best one under your own budget, from my perspective. I like the Italian slim cut, and I wouldn't mind spend a little bit more on nice suits. Frankly, with my incoming going up in the future, I probably wouldn't mind spend more on a nice one...but thats just my own preference...A totally different question...do you guys think a double cuffs shirt looks more formal than a single one, particularly when you don't wear the suit jacket? The formal shirts that I have now are all dobule cuffs...still thinking do I need purchase some single cuff formal shirt for the summer when ppl probably don't intend to wear the suit jacket (can I assume that we don't really need to wear the suit jacket for the hot summer if we ever get one this year)...:-) ...thanks...

In the formal sense, double cuffs are meant for evening wear, and are not appropriate for wear during the day (just as you should not wear brown in town or anywhere after 6pm etc); but who really cares?? It's simply a matter of taste - just please give the novelty cufflinks a miss. And before anyone poses the question, but solid post links not the chain link ones - do you REALLY want to waste so much time putting cufflinks on every morning (the chain ones being very fiddly).For suits I prefer an English cut - double vent at the back, tailored in at the waist, structured shoulders but not too much. Gives a better silhouette and a more flattering profile than the Italian style (and if you're sitting down alot, the double vent creases the suit much less than the traditional Italian single vent).

King&Allen make blouses and suits for women too. All at a competitive price.Personally, I thought I knew about suits till I visited them. Double vents? Italian Style? I knew this much about suits when I was 12.When you call King&Allen ask for Charlotte or Jake. The amount of customisation you can do is great. Everything from buttons, style of collar, pleats, lining, fit, drop etc. When it comes to vents you either get double or single - big deal.

a, well done - you have taken some basic points about off the peg suits and made it truly boring.

Have I hurt your feelings Mars?

You know headhunters - we don't have any (sniff**) ;-). I think you made good points about going bespoke if you can - just that the point here was about off the peg, which needs only some very basic decisions. All I was getting at is the amount of people I see with badly wrinkled suits due to a single vent. Bespoke would be a whole separate thread IMHO.

Agree with you Mars - now can we be friends again?

Didnt realise we had fallen out a.Now lets get down to the serious matters of the day - this sheila chick and her lady love adventure...

I am reasonably senior (senior manager) and a swear by M&S machine washable suits (£130) - they are light weight and easy enough to wash if the kids wreck them when i get home. Never had a problem or negaive comments - in fact, some have complemented.My shirts are from TM Lewin as the fit is very good and they are well priced - 4 for £100.Casual - remove tie; formal - add tie.the key is to keep it simple.

A Senior (Senior Manager)? Does that mean that you have not been promoted in a while? Wonder why? Wearing a £130 suit. Shirts from TM Lewin are fine but a Senior Manager wearing such a cheap suit should be shot!

Indeed, a senior manager with a 6 figure salary. Don't get me wrong, I do have some rather expensive suits, but wear my M&S machine washables to work day in day out.So what if I wear a £130 suit? I know partners at my firm who do as well (I can recognise them).I also know partners at my firm who wear a Seiko watch - I prefer my IWC.Any your point is? I don't think you are a senior manager...not if you think people should be shot for wearing something that doesn't fit your criteria. I pity the people you interact with.

Yeah, he's a numpty - how can you say TM Lewin shirts are a good fit - they give a chap so much spare material around the waist you could house a family of illegal immigrants up there for a few weeks.I know a partner whose tool is only 3 inches long too, and he only sports a Patek Phillipe, but he gives great head so I can't hold his poor choice of timepiece against him..

Cheryl you are spot on with your comment about TM Lewin shirts. They are however good value for money. As for a partner with a 3 inch tool, and gave good head - well I am sure you returned the favour. Patek Phillipe? Thought that was one of the best brands myself. Up there with Breitlings etc. M&S, I pity the Analysts that work with you. They probably think that an M&S suit awaits them when they make Senior Manager.

You're not an Accenturite by any chance? I think I may know who you are!

So where would one go to get a decent fitted suit in the sub 400 quid category?I'm in pretty good shape so could carry off a fitted one but not sure where to go! Just find that with most off the peg high street ones they aren't tailored enough (looks like have borrowed the old man's suit!)

i personally think one can only look good in a suit if you have a good physique - the most expensive suit would always look crap on someone short and/or fat.So spend money on a personal trainer or improving your looks before splashing out on that suit.

Ede & Ravenscroft = good value for money, especially during sales. Their suits are well made and last forever.

http://www.kingandallen.co.uk/king&allen - you can't go wrong. If you don't believe me just turn up to any of these eventshttp://www.kingandallen.co.uk/?v=fitting_day_calendarDon't make an apporintment, just go and see what they have on the rack. These guys are very popular with the IB crowd. Believe me.

I believe Ede and R are also popular with the barristers set too, so speaks something of the traditions in their work. Don't they make judicial wigs also?? (Could be wrong on this one...)

Bored as I am with this subject, the situation as I see it is this.What you wear is part of how you present yourself and your overall brand. Yes, it might be OK to show a more "down to earth" side if you are in the office but you should, in my view, have at least 1 swanky suit somewhere for key meetings. Also varying your look even in day to day situations is a good thing,.If you turn up on a client site in an M&S suit, looking like a student, you are not taking care of your presentation. TO me it is equivalent to giving a presentation armed with an A5 notebook. (what does it matter if I could not be bothered to use powerpoint, I got the info across....)It should not matter but it does.TM Lewin shirts are fine for day to day wear of course but they are not great. I would advocate a bunch of TM Lewin shirts for day to day and something a bit more fitted for important events. Yes, there are always those who do well despite wearing cheap clothes. THey will tell you that they do not need to wear armani to be successful but how do we know? smarten up and improve the dress sense of a senior manager and perhaps you have a partner? There is so much independent research on this subject, the vast majority of which supports the notion that appearance and quality of clothing is important to the way you are perceived, that you are very brave to ignore it when you are thinking about how to present yourself both in client meetings and on a day to day basis. Pop stars and actors need a "look". It is no good saying you are a great singer or actor. In most, not necessarily all, you have to look the part as well if you are going to make it. The same principle applies here. A few years ago when I first met my wife, I received the woman's touch to my wardrobe and transformed the way I looked when I went to work. I can honestly tell you that it made a difference. I thought I was doing fine. I started to do better. People just took me more seriously somehow....... As I personally lack the talent to get anywhere through pure ability, I have no shame in ensuring that I look the very best I can (which is a relative thing because I am an ugly b@stard) if it helps me advance in my career.,

after all that blurb, i still maintain that a guy with a good physique in an M&S suit will have more presence and charisma that a short and fat chap with receding hair in the most expensive suit money can buy.As long as a suit looks half decent then its ok - focus the rest of your energy on having a good physique, good skin etc. A spotty face with thick rimmed glasses is repulsive - and it wont be fixed by a £700 suit.

You're right... I need to get back down the gym regularly again. I had to cancel my membership because the rates got too high. Any ideas for bodyweight exercises I can do at home? I have two 15kg dumbells as well for what it's worth. I think I need to work most on building up my upper chest. Tips and even better a full bodyweight workout programme I can do at home would be greatly appreciated.

"A spotty face with thick rimmed glasses is repulsive..."Mkay. We get the point. Enough already.Sounds like a hang up or complex to me.

Only women get judged on their looks. A short fat man with an equally fat wallet can get a great looking babe. But an short ugly women cannot get a good looking man no matter how fat her purse is. Unless she pays. Hmmmm... P.S. Ladies, I know a good website if you need it

so aside from ede and ravenscroft and king and allen is there anywhere else one would go for a decent suit for under 400?What about off the rail one's at the likes of selfridges etc.? quality? or better going to a tailor.

How about the evening wear, i.e. the dinner jacket? Please execuse me for my ingorance...I have no idea about the dinner jacket brands/shops in the high street, neither the styles apart from some webpages browsed early...I would like to have a reasonable quality/nice one, although it won't be wore very often. Have anyone gone for Kings&Allen for the tailored dinner jacket? Is it any good? PS: I am short (which I can't change unfortunately) but quite fitted physically (5 times workout per week). Of course, if you are tall, I have to admit you are "gifted" to have more advantage in terms of the presentation in the (fairly nice) suits, than a short guy.

I'm put off king and Allen by some dody reviews i've read on the net.

Really? then, how about making a dinner jacket from one of the high street's shops (such as shops in Jermyn street), or other options? Have no idea about the price range of it...Probably should go for M&S, then.

Without a shadow of a doubt, the single most boring thread ever. Please stop.

if it is bring then stop reading londonkiddo. King & Allen are sound.

I have used King and Allen and found the quality of the fit and the cloth lacking in quality. I would go as far as to say its the worst siut I have ever worn in my life (worn it twice and its sitting in my wardrobe ever since). Stay away !!!

Anyone got a tm lewin suit? How are they in terms of being 'fitted' and looking good (compared with say some designer off the rail suits?)

OK, how about suits with a breast pocket(s)?Certainly I know that in shirts it's not the best, but I just don't know about the jacket.

Should have a breast pocket - as we are wearing ties less and less (rightly so) it provides an opportunity to play with pocket squares to add a little individuality and dress up a more relaxed look; open neck shirt with a pocket square can look dressed up but relaxed at the same time.

Mars,You sound like an absolute card! I can just imagine you with your tweed jacket with patches on the elbows. Do you wear a bow tie to work sometimes to go with the pocket square or perhaps you are a braces man.

the material and quality of the expensive M&S suits beat designer ones costing many times more. i am not sure about the fit, depends on your build i suppose - but the are endorsed by the England rugby team!

I would trust the England rugby team on clothing issues..... or rugby for that matter

why would you? I wouldn't!

Hmmm - I was thinking more GQ/Tom Ford than Jeeves and Wooster! Try it - you might like it!